Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Discuss politics and current affairs here.

Hot topic: The scourge of negative gearing, Friends of the NBN and wrecking lives.  The economy and Poll tracking— all the polls.

Special Feature 1: Peter Costello and our current deficits.
Special Feature 2: Dr Turnbull and the wrong NBN prescription
Special Feature 3: The Denigration of science, technology and education.
.
Forum rules
The rules for this board are in the Charter of Moderation. Politics is for serious discussion of politics, economics and current affairs.
User avatar
mothra
Duck
Posts: 6621
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 17:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by mothra »

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
pinkeye wrote:'coward's option'...? What do you mean by that. ?

Exactly what it says, it's the cowards option. For some, suicide is easier than dealing with life.

Suicide is far too complex to be written off as cowardice.

It is rarely committed through cowardice. More often than not, the people who do it are convinced their loved ones will be better off without them.

These are people in tremendous pain. Something is very wrong. It's too easy just to blame them for it.

then they are cowards for not asking their loved ones first.
There is no question that if asked, all those that love a person would fight like hell to save them, should they be given the choice and would strongly condemn the notion of suicide ... that doesn't mean a person believes they have anything to offer aside from worry and burden.




johnsmith wrote:And yes I am aware that calling them cowards is simplistic and that there are many other factors at paly. But I feel that when you break it down, at it's most basic level, it is cowardice.

Be that because they are scared of the 'pain and suffering', scared of 'what's around the corner', scared to face life without 'the one that got away,' scared of facing the 'consequences of their actions' etc etc .... whatever has caused that fear, they took the cowards option and instead of facing it, they ended it.

A person who is clinically depressed feels acutely their impact on the people around them, commonly to the point of paranoia. They are the strongest critics of themselves. They judge themselves extremely harshly. They are aware of efforts to heal them and are inclined to guilt for failing to be healed.

Depression often brings guilt right along with it.

Many suicides truly believe they are sparing their loved ones. They see no worth in themselves and feel responsible for the worry and concern they generate. People often talk of feeling broken for not being able to respond positively to pleasurable stimuli of any kind. They feel their whole existence is a drain on those around them. That they bring the whole scene down.

And in all of this, i'm talking about just one form of suicide. There are many.

Did you know the most prolific demographic of male suicides? It's elderly men. They're not being cowards. They're simply deciding to check out because they consider that life isn't worth living anymore. Who are any of us to tell them that it is?

And then there are suicides that are really just the ultimate self harm. Intolerable pain abated by direct action. Usually these are people that have been tremendously hurt in their lives.

And those who live with constant suicide ideation. Fighting that takes the strength of an army.

None of these people are cowards. They are some of the strongest and bravest people around. I am constantly reminded of the human capacity for resilience from those very people that many write off as weak.

John, you were very sympathetic to mental illness as a factor some posts ago. I'm a little confused at how your empathy dries up on this point. You're quite wrong and your position is entirely unhelpful. All it succeeds isn doing is creating more negative grist for the mill.

User avatar
johnsmith
Lion
Posts: 10752
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 21:39
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by johnsmith »

mothra wrote: Did you know the most prolific demographic of male suicides? It's elderly men.
and the largest portion of those is farmers. Who end it because they can't face another year of drought, or can't face the solitude, or another round of poor crops. They're certainly not doing it for the family.
mothra wrote: John, you were very sympathetic to mental illness as a factor some posts ago. I'm a little confused at how your empathy dries up on this point. You're quite wrong and your position is entirely unhelpful. All it succeeds in doing is creating more negative grist for the mill.
and I am still sympathetic to mental illness as a factor. I am happy to concede that if they were of sound mind they would not choose to kill themselves. I think that as a modern society treatment should be available for anyone suffering from any form of mental illness, but that doesn't change the fact that at it's most basic point, anyone opting for suicide is being a coward. I'm just not buying the argument that they do it for their loved ones.



Maybe I'm just not crazy enough 'yet' to see the link between suicide and helping family :tease
FD.
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

User avatar
pinkeye
Rhinocerus
Posts: 5737
Joined: 01 Oct 2017, 21:59
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by pinkeye »

Liked your post very much Mothra.

Much easier to brush it away with feelings of superiority...
sleeping is good for you

Bongalong
Warthog
Posts: 4020
Joined: 25 Jun 2018, 11:48
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by Bongalong »

Hey, John: have you ever read a suicide note... you should see the way the writing gets bigger at the end.... :WTF
"Oi!"

Bongalong
Warthog
Posts: 4020
Joined: 25 Jun 2018, 11:48
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by Bongalong »

pinkeye wrote:Liked your post very much Mothra.

Much easier to brush it away with feelings of superiority...
My mate, who committed suicide, brushed the suicide of our other primary school mates with- I suppose- 'feelings of superiority'.(I wouldn't say this myself... I would say it's more their way of dealing with it,... as we all have different ways of dealing with such a difficult conundrum: including mr john smith))

I've mentioned this in the thread already.

In his family there was three suicides from the one generation... there was also multiple marriage breakdowns and too much dope being smoked by all involved...

I say this BECAUSE he was my best mate...and I know his family wouldn't wish this on anyone! (How long do you think I've known them for?)
"Oi!"

Bongalong
Warthog
Posts: 4020
Joined: 25 Jun 2018, 11:48
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by Bongalong »

johnsmith wrote:
mothra wrote: Did you know the most prolific demographic of male suicides? It's elderly men.
and the largest portion of those is farmers. Who end it because they can't face another year of drought, or can't face the solitude, or another round of poor crops. They're certainly not doing it for the family.
mothra wrote: John, you were very sympathetic to mental illness as a factor some posts ago. I'm a little confused at how your empathy dries up on this point. You're quite wrong and your position is entirely unhelpful. All it succeeds in doing is creating more negative grist for the mill.
and I am still sympathetic to mental illness as a factor. I am happy to concede that if they were of sound mind they would not choose to kill themselves. I think that as a modern society treatment should be available for anyone suffering from any form of mental illness, but that doesn't change the fact that at it's most basic point, anyone opting for suicide is being a coward. I'm just not buying the argument that they do it for their loved ones.



Maybe I'm just not crazy enough 'yet' to see the link between suicide and helping family :tease
You're just selling pills mate by labelling everyone mentally ill... :PC
"Oi!"

User avatar
pinkeye
Rhinocerus
Posts: 5737
Joined: 01 Oct 2017, 21:59
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by pinkeye »

Bongalong wrote:
pinkeye wrote:Liked your post very much Mothra.

Much easier to brush it away with feelings of superiority...
My mate, who committed suicide, brushed the suicide of our other primary school mates with- I suppose- 'feelings of superiority'.(I wouldn't say this myself... I would say it's more their way of dealing with it,... as we all have different ways of dealing with such a difficult conundrum: including mr john smith))

I've mentioned this in the thread already.

In his family there was three suicides from the one generation... there was also multiple marriage breakdowns and too much dope being smoked by all involved...

I say this BECAUSE he was my best mate...and I know his family wouldn't wish this on anyone! (How long do you think I've known them for?)
Likely for as long as you can remember. And YES.. brushing it aside , feeling superior, is a way of managing the idea,.. but I know it only works in theory.

In actuality.. its every person for themselves. Even if you have family , and /or other support around. Amazing as it seems, we are all different in our minds, and no real categories can be relied on.
sleeping is good for you

User avatar
mothra
Duck
Posts: 6621
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 17:47
spamone: Animal

Re: Flipping Heck: can we even talk about this?

Post by mothra »

pinkeye wrote:
Bongalong wrote:
pinkeye wrote:Liked your post very much Mothra.

Much easier to brush it away with feelings of superiority...
My mate, who committed suicide, brushed the suicide of our other primary school mates with- I suppose- 'feelings of superiority'.(I wouldn't say this myself... I would say it's more their way of dealing with it,... as we all have different ways of dealing with such a difficult conundrum: including mr john smith))

I've mentioned this in the thread already.

In his family there was three suicides from the one generation... there was also multiple marriage breakdowns and too much dope being smoked by all involved...

I say this BECAUSE he was my best mate...and I know his family wouldn't wish this on anyone! (How long do you think I've known them for?)
Likely for as long as you can remember. And YES.. brushing it aside , feeling superior, is a way of managing the idea,.. but I know it only works in theory.

In actuality.. its every person for themselves. Even if you have family , and /or other support around. Amazing as it seems, we are all different in our minds, and no real categories can be relied on.

This is the absolute truth. Every single person is unique. Every single one.

And even when that person is empathised with, what works one day may not work another. Or the same thing said by different people.

There are just so many factors that contribute to the personal mental health profile of any individual ... something simple counselling from multiple sources often addresses better than diagnosis, classification and procedure following.

Post Reply