The 'Confederate Flag.'

Aussie

Administrator
Staff member
I think in the case of Australia and World War 2 it was a different case. If you asked an American why they were fighting in World War 2, or a Frenchmen, they would've told you it was for a 'cause'.

The Civil War and the Confederacy was specifically about slavery and the expansion of slavery in the United States. Some people might not have cared either way and might've enlisted just for the 'excitement' as some people are wont to do, but it was definitely about a cause.

As I said, in the case of Australia and World War 2, it was less about a 'cause' and more about Queen and Country.

On the other hand though, I am surprised by that - World War 2 was definitely a fight of good vs. evil and the Japanese government at the time was evil. Your father and brother were fighting against evil.
Nope. The Old Man enlisted because that was what you did. He was there for Australia, not there to be anti Japan who just happened to be the designated foe. Elder Bro was conscripted and correctly decided that he could make a successful career in the military, so he stayed in. Nothing to do with 'good' or 'evil.'

If I had been conscripted back in the late 60s, I would have gone in and done what was asked, and it would have had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than........it was what it was......conscripted. No choice.
 

Auggie

Active member
Nope. The Old Man enlisted because that was what you did. He was there for Australia, not there to be anti Japan who just happened to be the designated foe. Elder Bro was conscripted and correctly decided that he could make a successful career in the military, so he stayed in. Nothing to do with 'good' or 'evil.'

If I had been conscripted back in the late 60s, I would have gone in and done what was asked, and it would have had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than........it was what it was......conscripted. No choice.
So, you're father and brother never came to believe, even after the war, that it was about good and evil?
 

Aussie

Administrator
Staff member
So, you're father and brother never came to believe, even after the war, that it was about good and evil?
Never ever saw any evidence of that from the Old Man. He was an extremely practical pragmatic bloke. Elder Bro was not in WW2 or Vietnam but he was up to his neck in shit in East Timor when Indonesia got angsty...and at other volatile places in the Pacific.
 

Auggie

Active member
Never ever saw any evidence of that from the Old Man. He was an extremely practical pragmatic bloke. Elder Bro was not in WW2 or Vietnam but he was up to his neck in shit in East Timor when Indonesia got angsty...and at other volatile places in the Pacific.
Look, that's fair enough.

I think some people at the time didn't realise how serious World War 2 was. It was only afterwards when we discovered the concentration camps and learnt of Japanese atrocities that we came to view World War 2 as a battle between good and evil.

As I said before though, an Australian's perspective on WW2 would've been very much different compared to an American's or a Brit's. And in the case of the Civil War, it was definitely the slavery issue.
 

pinkeye

Wonder woman
Nope. The Old Man enlisted because that was what you did. He was there for Australia, not there to be anti Japan who just happened to be the designated foe. Elder Bro was conscripted and correctly decided that he could make a successful career in the military, so he stayed in. Nothing to do with 'good' or 'evil.'

If I had been conscripted back in the late 60s, I would have gone in and done what was asked, and it would have had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than........it was what it was......conscripted. No choice.
So the fact you consider it a Battle Flag.. and think that means something .. is just BS.
They'd have fought and killed/ died WHATEVER.
because they HAD NO CHOICE.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
We may debate what the Confederate flag represented, but it is not debatable that, among those things, it represented an attempt by southern states to secede from the Union which led to a bitter and bloody civil war. Surely, our Civil War days were the darkest days in our history.

The South lost. It’s flag should be relegated to history books, not flown over state capitol buildings or anywhere else for that matter.

I’m not suggesting a ban on anything individuals may want to display because I support the First Amendment. But the Civil War ended 155 years ago. We are one nation. It’s long since past time that the flag of the Confederacy was displayed for the last time.

Seth :oldman🇺🇲
 

HBS Guy

Head Honcho
Staff member
Too true. Can argue the causes: the tariff to protect northern manufacturers, the fact the South were beginning to see power slip from their grasp (in the 1860 presidential elections Lincoln was not listed on any southern ballot yet still won the election) and did not see a way to expand into the territories to form new slave states. Slavery became the issue when the union started taking over territory in the west.
 

DreamRyderX

Active member
It’s long since past time that the flag of the Confederacy was displayed for the last time.
I agree, only if it's meant that the US Government will no longer sanction by law flying any other flag, but the flag of the United States of America, by the Government of the United States of America.

That said, this would still leave any or all Americans free to fly, as a matter of individual expression guaranteed under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, any flag they wish, including the Confederate Stars & Bars, just as long as the American Flag always has a superior position of prominence over any other flag they choose to fly simultaneously.




 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
I agree, only if it's meant that the US Government will no longer sanction by law flying any other flag, but the flag of the United States of America, by the Government of the United States of America.

That said, this would still leave any or all Americans free to fly, as a matter of individual expression guaranteed under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, any flag they wish, including the Confederate Stars & Bars, just as long as the American Flag always has a superior position of prominence over any other flag they choose to fly simultaneously.





And that's why I said what I said. Flying a flag is an expression of free speech, and I would never agree to banning a flag, not even the Nazi flag, or an ISIS flag. Individuals may display whatever they want.

"Free speech" means we may disagree with the speech, but you have the right to say it. I think the Confederate flag should be banned from public land, and I think it should be relegated to history. But, while I may disagree with an individual deciding to display it, I will defend their right to do it.
 
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DreamRyderX

Active member
As long as it doesn’t fly over state capitols etc is good.
That's up to the States.

In America each & every State has the Right to make it's own rules & laws, & Self-Govern in line with the Laws of the Land....the US Constitution.

It's called States Rights.

Say, if a handful of States want to fly a flag over their Capitol Building Dome, as long as they give the United States Flag prominence above all other flags, it's their Right to do just so, & Constitutionally no Federal Government can deny them........if you doubt me read the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution.


Amendment X (1791)

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the People.

..
..

So what does the 10th Amendment mean:

The Founding Fathers wanted to make sure the power of the Federal Government was very limited. The 10th Amendment relates to the relationship between individual States and the Federal Government. It preserves the right of the States to choose what’s best for them. It was also intended to make it clear that unless the Federal Government was explicitly granted authority by the Constitution to make a decision, it couldn’t do so. Any power not given to the Federal Government by the Constitution was to be turned over to the States & the People to decide. That is, the Federal Government only has the powers granted to it by the People in the writing of the Constitution.
 
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Auggie

Active member
The 14th amendment can be used to enforce civil rights if the States deprive their citizens of those rights as was the case during the civil rights era.
 

DreamRyderX

Active member
The 14th amendment can be used to enforce civil rights if the States deprive their citizens of those rights as was the case during the civil rights era.
And who's going to enforce those rights?

The DOJ, & the AG..........right?

Remember, who they take their orders from.........

If the President says no, it's no.......He's the Chief Executive Officer of the Executive Branch of Government, & they take their orders from him if he decides to get involved, not Congress or the Supreme Court ....

But, lets not lose focus here.........flying the Confederate Flag is not a violation of the 14th Amendment.....it's not a violation of anyone's civil rights, so there's no issue here.

An American Citizen who is deprived of their First Amendment Rights of Free Speech to fly the Confederate Flag would have a civil rights case if they were to pursue it.

Those not familiar with American Constitutional Law might claim it's 'hate speech' to fly the Confederate Flag.....it's offensive, it's racist, it promoted slavery, etc, etc, etc.........but the United States Supreme Court has already ruled unanimously there is no such thing as hate speech......the First Amendment protects virtually all speech/expression by an American Citizen.


Source: Wikipedia
The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is legally protected free speech under the First Amendment. The most recent Supreme Court case on the issue was in 2017, when the justices unanimously reaffirmed that there is effectively no "hate speech" exception to the free speech rights protected by the First Amendment.

Also see:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/19/supreme-court-unanimously-reaffirms-there-is-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/


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DreamRyderX

Active member
Do not agree with you .. not a jot.
@pinkeye

That's your right to your own personal opinion, & I respect that personal opinion.......but that said, it's still an American's First Amendment Constitutional Right to fly & promote the flying of the CSA Flag......



 
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DreamRyderX

Active member
PROMOTE is the KEYWORD there .. promote...
so you advocate secession from the USA..Correct.??
No I don't, but if you believe it is my purpose for displaying the Stars & Bars, again that would be your own personal perception & opinion of my motives. As I said before, I will always reserve the right to disagree, but I will always respect your right to your own personal opinions......

 

pinkeye

Wonder woman
Well then .. I afford YOU the right to speak freely. also.
And I already know your motive/s. They ARE obvious..

Altho we don't have a Bill of Rights ( yeah I know :rolleyes: ) here in OZ and we have the likely toughest Libel Laws in the world...you can say whatever u like:D

..... as long as you don't upset Vox Populi.

Or a Chinese activist for freedom.

I don't listen to any News but free-to-air. I would piss on Fox News, if I ever got the opportunity, as for TRUMP????

Should BE IN A STRAIT-JACKET.!
 
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