US man charged with wife’s murder wins Republican town primary from jail

mothra

Administrator
Staff member
US man charged with wife’s murder wins Republican town primary from jail


Andrew Wilhoite, 40, of Lebanon, Indiana, accused of killing Nikki Wilhoite with flower pot and dumping her body in nearby creek


A central Indiana man accused of murdering his wife and dumping her body in a creek in March has won a Republican primary election for township board in the state – from jail.

Andrew Wilhoite, 40, of Lebanon received 60 of the 276 total votes on Tuesday for Republicans for three positions on the Clinton township board, Boone county election results showed.

Wilhoite was arrested in late March in connection with the death of 41-year-old Elizabeth “Nikki” Wilhoite, whom, the authorities suspect, was killed by a blow from a gallon-sized concrete flower pot, the Indianapolis Star reports.

He has been held since then in the Boone county jail without bond, charged with murder.

Indiana police allege Andrew Wilhoite struck Nikki Wilhoite in the head with a blunt object, knocking her out.

He then put her in a vehicle and drove to a creek a few miles from their home and dumped her body there after dropping it from a bridge, police allege.

Police found Nikki Wilhoite’s body on 26 March partially submerged in about three feet of water.

Court records indicate Nikki Wilhoite filed for divorce on 17 March. The couple had been married for 12 years.

Andrew Wilhoite’s jury trial is scheduled for 29 August, court records show.

If he is convicted of a felony before the 8 November general election, he would automatically be removed from the ballot. No Democrats have filed for the board.

“Under our legal system, every person is innocent until proven guilty,” said Brad King, co-director of the Indiana Election Division.

A message seeking further comment was left on Friday by the Associated Press for Wilhoite’s attorney.

The township board has three members and only three people stood for election.

Nikki Wilhoite was reported missing on 25 March after failing to report for work.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...Wl4sRu3N39Cv-_x912vNTV4J_g#Echobox=1651856513
 

DreamRyderX

Active member
.......“Under our legal system, every person is innocent until proven guilty,” said Brad King, co-director of the Indiana Election Division......
Sounds fair to me.....he stays on the ballot if or until convicted. If anyone feels he should be removed from the ballot immediately then imagine......accuse anyone of a felony & you eliminate the competition without the need to prove any wrongdoing......

The Presumption of Innocence:

The presumption of innocence is contained in article 14(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)

Source: https://tinyurl.com/yxqxvgh4
The right to the presumption of innocence is one of the guarantees in relation to legal proceedings contained in article 14. The other guarantees are the right to a fair trial and fair hearing, and minimum guarantees in criminal proceedings, such as the right to counsel and not to be compelled to self-incriminate.
 

greggerypeccary

Active member
Sounds fair to me.....he stays on the ballot if or until convicted. If anyone feels he should be removed from the ballot immediately then imagine......accuse anyone of a felony & you eliminate the competition without the need to prove any wrongdoing......

The Presumption of Innocence:

The presumption of innocence is contained in article 14(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)

Source: https://tinyurl.com/yxqxvgh4
The right to the presumption of innocence is one of the guarantees in relation to legal proceedings contained in article 14. The other guarantees are the right to a fair trial and fair hearing, and minimum guarantees in criminal proceedings, such as the right to counsel and not to be compelled to self-incriminate.
Yet Republicans like you continue to chant "Lock her up".

Lock her up for what, Ryder - what has Mrs. Clinton been convicted of?

Isn't the presumption of innocence contained in article 14(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)?

Or, are you just being a hypocrite with appalling double standards?

I'm curious.
 

DreamRyderX

Active member
Still sounds fair to me.....he stays on the ballot if or until convicted. If anyone feels he should be removed from the ballot immediately then imagine......accuse anyone of a felony & you eliminate the political competition without the need to prove any wrongdoing......

Say, just make a fake child rape accusation......right Gweggy...you're the master of that......any child rape stories from 2016 you want to fondly relive for the 10,000th time ?
 
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greggerypeccary

Active member
Still sounds fair to me.....he stays on the ballot if or until convicted. If anyone feels he should be removed from the ballot immediately then imagine......accuse anyone of a felony & you eliminate the political competition without the need to prove any wrongdoing......

Say, just make a fake child rape accusation......right Gweggy...you're the master of that......any child rape stories from 2016 you want to fondly relive for the 10,000th time ?
I haven't made any fake child rape accusations.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
US man charged with wife’s murder wins Republican town primary from jail


Andrew Wilhoite, 40, of Lebanon, Indiana, accused of killing Nikki Wilhoite with flower pot and dumping her body in nearby creek


A central Indiana man accused of murdering his wife and dumping her body in a creek in March has won a Republican primary election for township board in the state – from jail.

Andrew Wilhoite, 40, of Lebanon received 60 of the 276 total votes on Tuesday for Republicans for three positions on the Clinton township board, Boone county election results showed.

Wilhoite was arrested in late March in connection with the death of 41-year-old Elizabeth “Nikki” Wilhoite, whom, the authorities suspect, was killed by a blow from a gallon-sized concrete flower pot, the Indianapolis Star reports.

He has been held since then in the Boone county jail without bond, charged with murder.

Indiana police allege Andrew Wilhoite struck Nikki Wilhoite in the head with a blunt object, knocking her out.

He then put her in a vehicle and drove to a creek a few miles from their home and dumped her body there after dropping it from a bridge, police allege.

Police found Nikki Wilhoite’s body on 26 March partially submerged in about three feet of water.

Court records indicate Nikki Wilhoite filed for divorce on 17 March. The couple had been married for 12 years.

Andrew Wilhoite’s jury trial is scheduled for 29 August, court records show.

If he is convicted of a felony before the 8 November general election, he would automatically be removed from the ballot. No Democrats have filed for the board.

“Under our legal system, every person is innocent until proven guilty,” said Brad King, co-director of the Indiana Election Division.

A message seeking further comment was left on Friday by the Associated Press for Wilhoite’s attorney.

The township board has three members and only three people stood for election.

Nikki Wilhoite was reported missing on 25 March after failing to report for work.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...Wl4sRu3N39Cv-_x912vNTV4J_g#Echobox=1651856513
When voting for local boards, and 3 positions are open, it is common for your ballot to list the candidates and say "Vote for 3." It wouldn't surprise me if there were only three candidates for the positions. If that's the case he could have "won" with only one vote.

Also, as long as things seem to be running smoothly, a lot of people don't pay much attention when they vote for local boards and councils. Often, they don't know the people who are running for those positions. Somehow I doubt that those 60 people who voted for the guy knew that he was the same guy accused of murdering his wife.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Still sounds fair to me.....he stays on the ballot if or until convicted. If anyone feels he should be removed from the ballot immediately then imagine......accuse anyone of a felony & you eliminate the political competition without the need to prove any wrongdoing......

Say, just make a fake child rape accusation......right Gweggy...you're the master of that......any child rape stories from 2016 you want to fondly relive for the 10,000th time ?
Firstly we are NOT talking about just ANYONE. We are talking about someone running for public office. All our political leaders are held to a much higher standard than the average citizen. If it was a police officer accused/arrested for murdering his wife, do you that he should be set free to continue performing his duties? Because there exist a presumption that he is innocent? Of course not!! Nor is this presumption even mentioned in the Constitution.

I think that instead of shrouding yourself behind veil evolved legal idealisms, you might just look at the real evidence against him.
 

mothra

Administrator
Staff member
When voting for local boards, and 3 positions are open, it is common for your ballot to list the candidates and say "Vote for 3." It wouldn't surprise me if there were only three candidates for the positions. If that's the case he could have "won" with only one vote.

Also, as long as things seem to be running smoothly, a lot of people don't pay much attention when they vote for local boards and councils. Often, they don't know the people who are running for those positions. Somehow I doubt that those 60 people who voted for the guy knew that he was the same guy accused of murdering his wife.

Thank you, Seth, for allaying my biggest concern over this ... that this candidate was willingly voted for. I truly hope you are correct but given the seriously batshit crazy stuff some of those GOP representatives get up to over there in certain states, my fears are only mildly abated.

I fear my country is going down the same path yours seems a dedicated way along, and that is people vote more out of spite than out of any real understanding of who who they are voting for. As in, "this person doesn't like who i don't like so they're okay by me". Ironically, it's all the false accusations of identity politics finally coming true, in a horrible, dystopian way. So much so that we're actually talking about nazis again outside of the Acadamy Awards.

And forgive me for being presumptuous but i thought the case in the OP reflected how less fully grown women are considered as valuable over the rights of the unborn and over the issue of capital punishment. You know? How people's morals twist and turn? And it seems to me that very often that twisting and turning leaves women and minorities out in the cold. So much that impacts us so heavily is decided by people who aren't us. And by people who if they even listen to our voices; ridicule them.

Absolutely none of this is directed at you, Seth. I hold you outside this criticism, having the experience i have had with you. I question the party you support though. Rather heavily. You intrigue me though. I've met one other poster online that reminds me of you. He was conservative and fiercely so. Man we clashed ... but i've unlimited respect for him. Hew was as much of enigma and an education to me as you are.

But i've never asked you and i've missed it if you've ever declared .. are you pro capital punishment?
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Thank you, Seth, for allaying my biggest concern over this ... that this candidate was willingly voted for. I truly hope you are correct but given the seriously batshit crazy stuff some of those GOP representatives get up to over there in certain states, my fears are only mildly abated.

I fear my country is going down the same path yours seems a dedicated way along, and that is people vote more out of spite than out of any real understanding of who who they are voting for. As in, "this person doesn't like who i don't like so they're okay by me". Ironically, it's all the false accusations of identity politics finally coming true, in a horrible, dystopian way. So much so that we're actually talking about nazis again outside of the Acadamy Awards.

And forgive me for being presumptuous but i thought the case in the OP reflected how less fully grown women are considered as valuable over the rights of the unborn and over the issue of capital punishment. You know? How people's morals twist and turn? And it seems to me that very often that twisting and turning leaves women and minorities out in the cold. So much that impacts us so heavily is decided by people who aren't us. And by people who if they even listen to our voices; ridicule them.

Absolutely none of this is directed at you, Seth. I hold you outside this criticism, having the experience i have had with you. I question the party you support though. Rather heavily. You intrigue me though. I've met one other poster online that reminds me of you. He was conservative and fiercely so. Man we clashed ... but i've unlimited respect for him. Hew was as much of enigma and an education to me as you are.

But i've never asked you and i've missed it if you've ever declared .. are you pro capital punishment?
Mothra, I respect you very much.

In my opinion, we have things in common. I believe you are a registered nurse, and, if not, you work as a health care provider in some capacity. (Please remind me.) But, in any case, police officers and nurses have much in common. We do different jobs, but both are very difficult jobs. A person cannot do either career and walk away unscathed. There is a toll taken. For healthy people are not the ones cared for by a nurse. And police officers spend a career dealing with victims of crime of all sorts. Nurses understand the reality of sickness, infirmity, dying and death. Police officers deal with all sorts of victimization up to and including death. Both professions attempt to make life better for others. We do what we can to preserve life and alleviate or prevent suffering.

And both of us have to be the types of people who can deal with it all without allowing it to eat us alive. We are good at compartmentalization - a certain professional detachment that is necessary for our survival, while at the same time trying to convey compassion and caring to people we come in contact with. Both are gritty, difficult professions, and they are not for everybody. I have often thought that police and medical workers have a lot in common. And so I have a lot of respect for medical workers who can give their lives to this profession of helping others when they are sick, hurt, or dying. It takes a special kind of person to want to do this, and to do it for a career, and survive it.

I wish to tell you that I am not a Republican. There are aspects of typical Republican dogma and practice that go against my grain. I am also not a Democrat, and, I must say, there are a lot of Democratic policies and dogma that I just can't stand. I am an Independent. In state and federal elections, I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I lean conservative, but with exceptions. Neither party really suits me. But because I lean conservative on some things, I'm sure it sounds like I am a Republican partisan. But, I am not. There are some policy issues where I agree with Republicans, and Republicans usually, but not always, don't irritate me as much as Democrats do. But there are policy positions where Democrats are better than Republicans, and I think those policy positions are important enough to keep me independent of either party. And on some particular issues, Republicans irritate me as well.

I am so old now (66) that it is easy for me to spot the hypocrisy and manipulations of both parties.

You said, "You intrigue me though. I've met one other poster online that reminds me of you. He was conservative and fiercely so. Man we clashed ... but i've unlimited respect for him. He was as much of enigma and an education to me as you are."

Mothra, I take that as a high compliment. I would like to think that if I come off as an enigma to you, it is because my conservatism is "conservatism" by my own definition of it, not the "Republican" definition of it. On the Yank forum I am a part of, I usually agree with conservatives on things, but I also clash with them occasionally, as I did with one of them just recently.

Well, to your question about capital punishment: For some cases, yes I do agree with it. I think there are some crimes that are heinous enough that justice is served by capital punishment. As examples, the cases of premeditated kidnap-rape-murders of women, torture murders, kidnap-rape-murders of children, murders for hire or staged as accidents or suicides to get rid of unwanted spouses, murders for inheritances or insurance money, murders to eliminate witnesses, ambush style murders of police officers, and murders for terrorism. I also think capital punishment is justified for prisoners who are already serving a life term for murder who commit murder in prison.

The argument against that is that we can sentence to life in prison. Yes, that seems like a severe punishment - to languish in prison until you die. To free people, that seems like a terrible, everlasting punishment - neverending misery until death. But I have worked in a jail setting before, and there are certain things I know about life for a prisoner in jail or prison. And this is it:

Many of them become accustomed to life in prison. Their world is prison. And their world has friends, enemies, intrigue, entertainment, excitement, intellectual pursuits, jobs, recreation, predictability, security of a sort, meals, medical care, and even sex and drugs. There is even respect. It may be rendered by other inmates and/or the prison staff. We say they're "institutionalized", but to them it becomes a life worth living. One could even say that, except that they cannot leave the confines of the prison, they thrive. For such people, prison gradually becomes not the punishment we free people think it is. To them, it is just a different life than what we live. They cannot leave, but aside from that, it has many of the aspects of life that we all enjoy.

So for the little girl who was walking home two blocks from her friend's house who was kidnapped, raped, strangled to death and dumped in a culvert by some demented criminal who was lying in wait, life in prison is not justice served. For the families, this is not justice served to lock them up and let them live out their lives in their little prison world. I'm sorry, but to my mind, this is not justice done for the victim or the victim's loved ones. In fact, and I'll be brutally honest here, life in prison is tantamount to an insult to the life that was taken, and for all that life might have been, all it might have known, and all it meant to the ones who loved that victim.

I realize that we can protect society by locking up a killer for life. But are we doing justice by sparing that killer's life, and giving him another life, albeit in prison, at our expense? I understand that well-intentioned, moral people may disagree in their answer to that question. But my answer is no. We don't carry out justice when we do that.

I don't expect you to agree, but you have my answer, and you know why I gave it.

Seth
 
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greggerypeccary

Active member
There is no justification for capital punishment, ever.

The state-sanctioned, premediated killing of prisoners is pure evil (as are the crimes Seth described).

Just becasue someone does something incredibly evil and inexcusable, it doesn't give others the right to carry out evil acts themselves.

And make no mistake about it, strapping down a person and then killing them is evil.

It makes the executioner no better than the convicted criminal.
 
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Shellandshilo1956

Active member
There is no justification for capital punishment, ever.

The state-sanctioned, premediated killing of prisoners is pure evil (as are the crimes Seth described).

Just becasue someone does something incredibly evil and inexcusable, it doesn't give others the right to carry out evil acts themselves.

And make no mistake about it, strapping down a person and then killing them is evil.

It makes the executioner no better than the convicted criminal.
As a former cop, I use to believe that capital punishment was a necessary evil, to rid society of evil and deranged criminals. The problem is that before taking someone's life, they must be afforded due process first. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. Therefore, due process is not always perfect. And the judicial system is wrought with areas that can be compromised, circumvented, bought and paid for, ignored, bent, etc. And, sometimes the innocent are legally killed by the obvious lack of due diligence by the state. Also, every study on crime and punishment have consistently shown that capital punishment has never been, or will ever be a deterrent to capital crimes.

I have seen this first hand. I totally agree with you(on this issue), two wrongs can never make a right. Even if only ONE innocent life is saved from being wrongfully executed, that is enough reason to justify banning Capital Punishment in every state. And there have been over a hundred convicts wrongfully executed. Including a 14yo boy, who was denied his due process, and couldn't even lift the rock he was convicted of using to kill the two girls(George Stinney Jr.). It took 10 min to convict him. And 70 years to exonerate him.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/george-stinney-jr

It is also ironic that Texas leads the nation in legally killing fully born living human beings. And, is now leading the nation in trying to save embryos(unborn non-developed human beings) with a detectable heartbeat(from a non-developed heart). I guess television and movies, are not enough to satisfy the carnal blood appetites of the many.
 
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mothra

Administrator
Staff member
Mothra, I respect you very much.

In my opinion, we have things in common. I believe you are a registered nurse, and, if not, you work as a health care provider in some capacity. (Please remind me.) But, in any case, police officers and nurses have much in common. We do different jobs, but both are very difficult jobs. A person cannot do either career and walk away unscathed. There is a toll taken. For healthy people are not the ones cared for by a nurse. And police officers spend a career dealing with victims of crime of all sorts. Nurses understand the reality of sickness, infirmity, dying and death. Police officers deal with all sorts of victimization up to and including death. Both professions attempt to make life better for others. We do what we can to preserve life and alleviate or prevent suffering.

And both of us have to be the types of people who can deal with it all without allowing it to eat us alive. We are good at compartmentalization - a certain professional detachment that is necessary for our survival, while at the same time trying to convey compassion and caring to people we come in contact with. Both are gritty, difficult professions, and they are not for everybody. I have often thought that police and medical workers have a lot in common. And so I have a lot of respect for medical workers who can give their lives to this profession of helping others when they are sick, hurt, or dying. It takes a special kind of person to want to do this, and to do it for a career, and survive it.

I wish to tell you that I am not a Republican. There are aspects of typical Republican dogma and practice that go against my grain. I am also not a Democrat, and, I must say, there are a lot of Democratic policies and dogma that I just can't stand. I am an Independent. In state and federal elections, I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I lean conservative, but with exceptions. Neither party really suits me. But because I lean conservative on some things, I'm sure it sounds like I am a Republican partisan. But, I am not. There are some policy issues where I agree with Republicans, and Republicans usually, but not always, don't irritate me as much as Democrats do. But there are policy positions where Democrats are better than Republicans, and I think those policy positions are important enough to keep me independent of either party. And on some particular issues, Republicans irritate me as well.

I am so old now (66) that it is easy for me to spot the hypocrisy and manipulations of both parties.

You said, "You intrigue me though. I've met one other poster online that reminds me of you. He was conservative and fiercely so. Man we clashed ... but i've unlimited respect for him. He was as much of enigma and an education to me as you are."

Mothra, I take that as a high compliment. I would like to think that if I come off as an enigma to you, it is because my conservatism is "conservatism" by my own definition of it, not the "Republican" definition of it. On the Yank forum I am a part of, I usually agree with conservatives on things, but I also clash with them occasionally, as I did with one of them just recently.

Well, to your question about capital punishment: For some cases, yes I do agree with it. I think there are some crimes that are heinous enough that justice is served by capital punishment. As examples, the cases of premeditated kidnap-rape-murders of women, torture murders, kidnap-rape-murders of children, murders for hire or staged as accidents or suicides to get rid of unwanted spouses, murders for inheritances or insurance money, murders to eliminate witnesses, ambush style murders of police officers, and murders for terrorism. I also think capital punishment is justified for prisoners who are already serving a life term for murder who commit murder in prison.

The argument against that is that we can sentence to life in prison. Yes, that seems like a severe punishment - to languish in prison until you die. To free people, that seems like a terrible, everlasting punishment - neverending misery until death. But I have worked in a jail setting before, and there are certain things I know about life for a prisoner in jail or prison. And this is it:

Many of them become accustomed to life in prison. Their world is prison. And their world has friends, enemies, intrigue, entertainment, excitement, intellectual pursuits, jobs, recreation, predictability, security of a sort, meals, medical care, and even sex and drugs. There is even respect. It may be rendered by other inmates and/or the prison staff. We say they're "institutionalized", but to them it becomes a life worth living. One could even say that, except that they cannot leave the confines of the prison, they thrive. For such people, prison gradually becomes not the punishment we free people think it is. To them, it is just a different life than what we live. They cannot leave, but aside from that, it has many of the aspects of life that we all enjoy.

So for the little girl who was walking home two blocks from her friend's house who was kidnapped, raped, strangled to death and dumped in a culvert by some demented criminal who was lying in wait, life in prison is not justice served. For the families, this is not justice served to lock them up and let them live out their lives in their little prison world. I'm sorry, but to my mind, this is not justice done for the victim or the victim's loved ones. In fact, and I'll be brutally honest here, life in prison is tantamount to an insult to the life that was taken, and for all that life might have been, all it might have known, and all it meant to the ones who loved that victim.

I realize that we can protect society by locking up a killer for life. But are we doing justice by sparing that killer's life, and giving him another life, albeit in prison, at our expense? I understand that well-intentioned, moral people may disagree in their answer to that question. But my answer is no. We don't carry out justice when we do that.

I don't expect you to agree, but you have my answer, and you know why I gave it.

Seth

I'm pleased you took it as a compliment, Seth. It was certainly intended as such.

I'm not a nurse but i have worked in allied health. I'm pretty coy with the details of my professional life because there are some dodgy individuals on the internet and i don't give out much personal information but i worked as a practitioner for a number of years but found a strong call for medical advocacy ... working with patients to understand what was going on with them and interpreting doctor speak and providing workable solutions. I found that much of my actual practice was concerned with explaining to people what they had been told by other health workers that they didn't understand fully or have any ideas on how to address. I had a strong Aboriginal client base who so often had been conferred diagnoses that utterly bamboozled and by and large terrified them. I would go with them to appointments or represent them in hospitals. It broke my heart how much prejudice and misunderstanding exists still in the medical world, although there are a very great number of truly magnificent people who are in it for all the right reasons. Now i work in mental health.

But i agree with you on the good people who choose lives of service. There are a great many. And indeed there are a great many people who embark on careers in such fields out of the noblest of human virtues ... and then there are the others. You know and i know. We've both met them ... and man, do they ever bring the side down. And another commonality between police officers and primary care givers is the fact that see people at their most vulnerable; when they are not presenting their best face to the world. It takes compassion and unconditional positive regard to be of use in such a situation and not cause harm. I'm blessed to count more than a couple of such people amongst my best of friends. One of those best friends is a cop. He has taught me a great deal.

I'm well pleased you are not a dyed in the wool Republican. I was tricked by your irrational contempt for Biden, who i think is doing a pretty swell job, especially considering what he inherited. His performance on a world scale has been impressive. And by your continued defence of Trump, who to my every sense was simply inexcusable But i'm not really interested in jumping down that rabbit hole.

Thank you for answering so honestly on the question regarding capital punishment. I fully understand your position but quite disagree ... as i'm certain you knew i would. Which is why i thank you for your explanation and candour.

I'll start another post in a wee while about why i oppose the death penalty under any circumstance.
 

mothra

Administrator
Staff member
As to capital punishment, i have several very well considered objections. The first is obvious; that base behaviour should not be met with base behaviour. An eye for an eye will make the world blind, etc. But this is a romantic idea and i do not place the weight of my reasoning upon it. I do however place my strongest emphasis upon it. Above all things, compassion. And i'm a firm believer that that counts most when it is most difficult.

Another of my considerations is that the death penalty is more a punishment on the condemned loved ones than it is on the condemned. For the condemned, it's all over but for those that loved them, they are saddled with disproportionate levels of grief. What of the mothers of condemned people? What must they live with, knowing that their child not only committed such crimes but that they faced and succumbed to state mandated execution? I find this third party suffering unacceptable. It simply creates more undeserved grief. There is grief enough in the humiliation and deprivation of liberty that is prison life for the loved ones. But to have someone you love executed? No, i consider that unbearable.

And this leads me on to my next point; it's not justice, it's vengeance. There is no justice for the parents of a raped and murdered child. They will never be compensated. It is impossible. They have been brutally robbed beyond the powers of any person to repay. The best we can hope for them is that they find peace. They will not find it through the execution of another. In fact, many people who are the loved ones of people lost to condemned individuals report feeling let down by executions. That there was no closure for them in the act. That is because there is no closure through vengeance. It doesn't heal, it embitters.

Leading on again, life in prison is not an enviable life even if life you can call it. It is brutal, undignified, massively restricted and absolutely and utterly controlled. It is punishment enough. But that is if punishment is your only goal. It is a given that many who are executed and are on death row suffered or suffer from mental health problems, childhood trauma and abuse, substance addiction ... and tragically, were simply vulnerable to wayward influence (so many are so very young when sentenced to death). This is irrefutable. I truly believe that even criminals must be treated humanely. In the absolute worst of cases, you will find mental health issues. To this end, i consider it an absolute waste not to have such individuals detained at humane, purpose built psychiatric institutions where they are studied heavily. Throw our best minds at them. Throw our students at them. Study them. Learn patterns of behaviour. Unravel these knots. Through understanding we can learn ways to enact early interventions and specialist treatments. I see this as as close to justice as we can manage. Furthermore i consider it an absolute waste to "dispose" of such subjects, given all we can learn from them. I emphasise though that they must be humanely treated. We'll get nowhere if they're not humanely treated.

As to justice, another important objection i hold is that innocent people have been executed and innocent people are currently on death row. As far as i'm concerned, if even one person is falsely executed or has to psychologically deal with the certainty of execution, this is an unacceptable cost. The risk of a miscarriage of justice far outweighs the false idea that execution is in itself justice. It is of course, not at all. It is vengeance.

And to this idea of what the condemned must psychologically deal with ... the certainty of death. The idea that the powers that be have ordered your death. There is no escape from that. I would argue that even in the most heinous murders, the victims probably had the possibility of retaining some hope. Hope for rescue, hope for humanity ... hope. When you are sentenced to die by the state and your appeals are exhausted, there is no hope. This is a disproportionate punishment. To my mind, it is beyond cruelty.

And then there is the brass tacks .. the cost. It costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life. No sense in that one.

And ultimately, i believe the powers that be should strive for excellence; for the best of humanity. I know this is a pipe dream but i do believe that should be the aim. Life should be held to be sacred. The taking of it by force, the worst thing we can do. That our standard should be that the taking of life is wrong. I'm a firm believer in the golden rule, that is so well accepted, it is the central tenet to religions and belief systems the world over since at least recorded history, do unto others.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
I'm pleased you took it as a compliment, Seth. It was certainly intended as such.

I'm not a nurse but i have worked in allied health. I'm pretty coy with the details of my professional life because there are some dodgy individuals on the internet and i don't give out much personal information but i worked as a practitioner for a number of years but found a strong call for medical advocacy ... working with patients to understand what was going on with them and interpreting doctor speak and providing workable solutions. I found that much of my actual practice was concerned with explaining to people what they had been told by other health workers that they didn't understand fully or have any ideas on how to address. I had a strong Aboriginal client base who so often had been conferred diagnoses that utterly bamboozled and by and large terrified them. I would go with them to appointments or represent them in hospitals. It broke my heart how much prejudice and misunderstanding exists still in the medical world, although there are a very great number of truly magnificent people who are in it for all the right reasons. Now i work in mental health.

But i agree with you on the good people who choose lives of service. There are a great many. And indeed there are a great many people who embark on careers in such fields out of the noblest of human virtues ... and then there are the others. You know and i know. We've both met them ... and man, do they ever bring the side down. And another commonality between police officers and primary care givers is the fact that see people at their most vulnerable; when they are not presenting their best face to the world. It takes compassion and unconditional positive regard to be of use in such a situation and not cause harm. I'm blessed to count more than a couple of such people amongst my best of friends. One of those best friends is a cop. He has taught me a great deal.

I'm well pleased you are not a dyed in the wool Republican. I was tricked by your irrational contempt for Biden, who i think is doing a pretty swell job, especially considering what he inherited. His performance on a world scale has been impressive. And by your continued defence of Trump, who to my every sense was simply inexcusable But i'm not really interested in jumping down that rabbit hole.

Thank you for answering so honestly on the question regarding capital punishment. I fully understand your position but quite disagree ... as i'm certain you knew i would. Which is why i thank you for your explanation and candour.

I'll start another post in a wee while about why i oppose the death penalty under any circumstance.
Thank you for your response, Mothra.

And you were right about people who are in service to others. There are some bad ones, but many good ones. I knew a few bad ones in my career, but they were the exceptions. Most of the officers I knew during my career were good people doing a very difficult job.

On Trump, as you may know, he lost my support on January 6th, the day of the Capitol Hill riot. I do think he was right on many national policies, however.

Also I have read your explanation for your position on the death penalty. I wish to thank you for taking the time to so fully explain it. Although we disagree, I'm glad that it doesn't have to be with a bunch of hysterics and rancor. I'm glad that we could exchange our views without resorting to all of that nonsense.

Cheers!
 
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