Why should people be forced to get vaccinated in order to protect others who choose not to get vaccinated??

chris155au

Active member
All because of a flu virus, that is less lethal than the measles and hepatitis A. And, only slightly more lethal than the mumps and whooping coughs. A disease where 98% of the victims will recover. Whether they are vaccinated or not. Amazing.
What do you make of this idea of long COVID?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
@Shellandshilo1956 - How would you respond to the argument that without lockdowns and a high vaccination rate, the hospitals will be overwhelmed?
The first thing I would say, is that people should be out in the air and in the open sun. The sun kills the virus. Keeping people locked up for long periods, in poorly ventilated places, are the perfect conditions to keep viruses more viable longer. Also, even if 100% of the population were vaccinated, they could still become infected and spread their infection to others. Even if being vaccinated made them all asymptomatic, their vaccine-induced antigen-specific antibodies, would still ignore all other viruses and their variants(6 so far). So you could die from another virus, or its variant.

Do we start manufacturing different vaccines to address every new variant? Or, a vaccine for every virus? Eventually, there there will be fewer and fewer natural antibodies to fight against any virus. Haven't we learned our lessons from the overuse of antibiotics? Artificially created antibodies do not work well with naturally created antibodies. Nature does not work well with anything that is artificial or man-made.

Whether hospitals are being overwhelmed or not is irrelevant from a medical perspective. It is the hospital's job to treat all people in need of medical attention. There are contingencies plans in place to assist these "overwhelmed" hospitals. Claiming/implying that unvaccinated people are placing an unnecessary burden on hospitals, is irresponsible and discriminatory. Claiming that unvaccinated people are a hinderance to other emergency treatments, are taking up unnecessary space and time, and are solely responsible for hospitals being overwhelmed, is just ignorant at best. And, "vaccine-bigoted" at worst. Should these hospitals simply refuse treating these people, as punishment for choosing not to be vaccinated? Maybe hospitals should decide who gets treated, based solely on the level of stupidity of the patient. This is just more fear-mongering, and the disseminating of facts taken out of context by the media.

What do you make of this idea of long COVID?
Sounds like a lot more people are just jumping on the ignorance/ambiguous bandwagon. With over 200 symptoms noted, and zero understanding of any biological pathways, Post Covid-19 Condition(Long Covid-19 Syndrome), is just another poisoning of the well by the media. How long do these symptoms last? No one knows(3-9 months so far). How can these symptoms be treated? Again, no one knows. We can find a 1 in 5 million blood-clotting link from a specific vaccine. But we can't find any causal link, between millions of recovered Covid-19 victims and long COVID?? Who do you think is benefitting from all of this confusion and ambiguity?

My guess is, that this is all psychosomatic. Amplified by media, political, and social hype and disinformation. How many people have died from this new illness? Zero?
 

mothra

Administrator
Staff member
Whether hospitals are being overwhelmed or not is irrelevant from a medical perspective. It is the hospital's job to treat all people in need of medical attention. There are contingencies plans in place to assist these "overwhelmed" hospitals. Claiming/implying that unvaccinated people are placing an unnecessary burden on hospitals, is irresponsible and discriminatory. Claiming that unvaccinated people are a hinderance to other emergency treatments, are taking up unnecessary space and time, and are solely responsible for hospitals being overwhelmed, is just ignorant at best. And, "vaccine-bigoted" at worst. Should these hospitals simply refuse treating these people, as punishment for choosing not to be vaccinated? Maybe hospitals should decide who gets treated, based solely on the level of stupidity of the patient. This is just more fear-mongering, and the disseminating of facts taken out of context by the media.

I've read some shit but this is serious shit.

What in hell?

You've seriously lost all credibility. You're just an hysteric.
 

chris155au

Active member
Whether hospitals are being overwhelmed or not is irrelevant from a medical perspective. It is the hospital's job to treat all people in need of medical attention. There are contingencies plans in place to assist these "overwhelmed" hospitals.
Do you know what these contingencies plans are?

Claiming/implying that unvaccinated people are placing an unnecessary burden on hospitals, is irresponsible and discriminatory.
Sure, but if only 50% or less of the population was vaccinated and we fully reopened, is it fair to say that the hospital system would face being overwhelmed?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Do you know what these contingencies plans are?
I certainly don't know the specifics of their contingency plans. But I am sure that all state, private, and local hospitals would have modelled numerous scenarios, and crunched out the numbers, in case of a mass traumas appearing at their door. That is, airline crashes, natural disasters, epidemics, train crashes, etc. For Christ sake, they do have contingency plans for a frigging fire. Right?

Remember, the hospitals in Australia have experience 12 months of Covid-19, when there were no vaccines available. Where everyone was unvaccinated. So, if vaccines are suppose to keep more people out of hospitals, and hospitals have already survived for 12 months before vaccines, then I hardly think that overwhelmed hospitals is a credible fear. But it is a fear-mongering tactic, to guilt/shame more people to become vaccinated.

Although I haven't researched what emergency support is available to hospitals, I would assume that it would allow for more staffing, more equipment, more transport, and more funding to become available.

Sure, but if only 50% or less of the population was vaccinated and we fully reopened, is it fair to say that the hospital system would face being overwhelmed?
I think that the more important question is, "Should the government hold our liberties and freedoms to ransom, in order to fully reopen the country?". Are you okay with the government bargaining with your natural human rights? Are you okay with, "If you don't do what we say, then it is your own fault, that we must withhold the freedoms until you do?". Does anyone here think that the flu virus will just go away? So will the lockdown become indefinite? Will Australia become a medical fascist country?

I was not shocked that the government would over-react to this problem like any child would. My greatest shock was our apathy, complacency, ignorance, and indifference, that has allowed them to get away with this.

The government is making it seem that it is the people's fault for spreading this virus. People are being punished/blamed, because they aren't vaccinated, don't keep apart, don't wear a mask, congregate in groups(churches, weddings, funerals, etc.), cross borders, or break guaranine/curfew. People don't even care that you are not even infected, or have already recovered from the infection. Two very important issues that are just being ignored. Even you are blaming the people and not the virus. Since over 95% of people are not even infected, then why are they being punished? This is just pure hysterics and theatrics.

Flus are going to be around as long as living breathing organisms are around. Nothing will change this. People are going to die from viruses. Despite even the best medical treatment available. It all depends on the condition of your immune system, and other health factors. Unfortunately, some people only see "virus killing, do anything to stop virus from killing. Anything at all.". They just don't care if the treatment is a thousand times worst than the illness.
 

chris155au

Active member
again, you are the only one to mention children
In reply to this:
Children can "fuck off?" :ROFL1
You said:
children aren't required to be vaccinated
So you didn't exactly say that you were NOT including children in the list of people who you said can "fuck off!" It's SIMPLE: you said that those who are "too young" can fuck off. The ONLY people who are too young to get vaccinated are children.
 

chris155au

Active member
Remember, the hospitals in Australia have experience 12 months of Covid-19, when there were no vaccines available. Where everyone was unvaccinated. So, if vaccines are suppose to keep more people out of hospitals, and hospitals have already survived for 12 months before vaccines, then I hardly think that overwhelmed hospitals is a credible fear.
The only reason that I bring this up, is that during the NSW and Vic Delta outbreaks, there were points at which the hospitals were becoming overwhelmed, and that was when the entire State was locked down. I found that rather disturbing, and it did seem expose a real weakness in our public health system in those two States -- and perhaps it could be argued that the situation would have been no better in any other State with a delta outbreak.

I think that the more important question is, "Should the government hold our liberties and freedoms to ransom, in order to fully reopen the country?". Are you okay with the government bargaining with your natural human rights?
No I'm not, but do you include lockdowns bargaining with your natural human rights?

Does anyone here think that the flu virus will just go away?
I'm not sure about on "here" specifically, but some idiots in the world do, yes. Some are so called 'experts!' Wasn't 'zero COVID' considered a realistic goal about five minutes ago? I guess Delta put an end to that stupid idea, but really it was just as unrealistic pre-Delta. So much for these so called 'experts' who thought that 'zero COVID' was actually achievable! :ROFL1

So will the lockdown become indefinite? Will Australia become a medical fascist country?
You wouldn't say that we already are?

People don't even care that you are not even infected, or have already recovered from the infection. Two very important issues that are just being ignored.
Yes, natural immunity is not being considered at all.
Same as the US. Totally crazy, and totally anti-science.

Even you are blaming the people and not the virus. Since over 95% of people are not even infected, then why are they being punished? This is just pure hysterics and theatrics.
95% symptomatic infection, right? For all we know, every single human in the world has been infected at some point, and this would just go to show how few people are actually at risk to getting sick from this thing - let alone actually dying from it.
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
In reply to this:


You said:


So you didn't exactly say that you were NOT including children in the list of people who you said can "fuck off!" It's SIMPLE: you said that those who are "too young" can fuck off. The ONLY people who are too young to get vaccinated are children.
fuck you're a moron. I don't know about you but I don't let my kids travel anywhere on their own, especially interstate. None of the parents I know would let their kids off on their own either. I don't need to tell the children to fuck off because when I tell their unvacinated parents or caregivers to fuck off, the parents will take their kids with them. Why you keep harping on about something so irrelevant highlights why usually no one bothers debating with you. You get fixated on the most stupid things. My mistake was trying to humor you the first time I answered you.
 

chris155au

Active member
fuck you're a moron. I don't know about you but I don't let my kids travel anywhere on their own, especially interstate. None of the parents I know would let their kids off on their own either. I don't need to tell the children to fuck off because when I tell their unvacinated parents or caregivers to fuck off, the parents will take their kids with them.
So you accidentally said that those who are "too young" can fuck off. Got it.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
No I'm not, but do you include lockdowns bargaining with your natural human rights?
Absolutely not. Under only the most extreme of circumstances would our natural human rights ever need to be bargained for. In such cases(wars, natural disasters, plagues, etc.), the reasons would be clearly obvious to anyone.

Please read this research article regarding the Delta variant. Which I believe was a product of the these vaccines. IMHO

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9

I'm not sure about on "here" specifically, but some idiots in the world do, yes. Some are so called 'experts!' Wasn't 'zero COVID' considered a realistic goal about five minutes ago? I guess Delta put an end to that stupid idea, but really it was just as unrealistic pre-Delta. So much for these so called 'experts' who thought that 'zero COVID' was actually achievable!
Totally agree.

Yes, natural immunity is not being considered at all.
Same as the US. Totally crazy, and totally anti-science.
Also agree.

95% symptomatic infection, right? For all we know, every single human in the world has been infected at some point, and this would just go to show how few people are actually at risk to getting sick from this thing - let alone actually dying from it.
I think you mean "asymptomatic". People can be infected by this virus. Even if people reach the "symptomatic" stage of this disease, their symptoms can easily be treated and controlled. Just like a cold, take meds, keep hydrated, and plenty of rest, until you recover.
 
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